Because of time constraints, I did not have time to listen to most of this talk (sermon?) by Paul Washer. So I forwarded the video to the last couple of minutes for the payoff. Whatever good he may have accomplished in the first 56 minutes, he totally (in my opinion) destroyed in the last few minutes.
This type of Christianity is responsible for creating Pharisees, phonies, or driving people out of churches.
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I’m anxious to hear your take on it. Thanks.
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Filed under: Choosing God, Free will |
The Old Adam Lives! 
Oy Veh! How many souls did he just damn to hell by tellling them that their ‘commitment’ was not real!!?? “Sorry, all you got was emotion. You didn’t get the real Spirit.”
This is all Law, Law, Law–you gotta, you gotta, you gotta. And if you can’t–well too bad for you, guess you are not really one of God’s elect.
Where’s the Gospel?? Where’s Christ who died and rose FOR YOU? Where is the trust in HIS work and HIS PROMISE of FORGIVENESS?
To those who say “But I want to be saved!” He offers only despair or a whitewashed tomb.
I couldn’t even listen to 4 minutes…I got nauseous. FEAR FEAR FEAR GUILT GUILT GUILT…What happened to “My grace is sufficient”?
Jonathan,
That’s pretty much what I thought. No matter if the first part of his talk was all gospel…he undid it all, by finishing with the law…what we must do, say, feel, or think.
One lousy sermon, if you ask me.
Now…can God make use of this if He so desires?
Sure! He can make the stones shout out if He so desires.
Thanks, Jonathan.
His prayer was a bit forced and over-emotional but his message is spot on. Many people think that if they walk forward and get their free Bible, they’re saved, That isn’t real, unless as he says, it lasts. It’s a cause-and-effect principle the Bible repeatedly uses, even Jesus Himself.
Washer rails against the silly American notion of guaranteed success. It has crept into our version of Christianity with the Prosperity Gospel and the Sinners’ Prayer Gospel.
Can he slip over the top at times? Yes, but Washer is a great evangelist.
Spot on for “decision theology” message for sure!
What if it doesn’t “last”? Are those poor souls just plain out of luck because they can’t drum it up within themselves?
Is he saying that if Jesus doesn’t give you the power to be just like him, then he must not care for you?
I sure pray those poor tortured souls don’t lose that lovin’ feelin’!
Just try harder! You got to really, really show Jesus that you love him, that you believe in him. Then you’ll know you got saved.
Ugh!
Jim J.,
I have heard Paul Washer preach (youtubes) about four or five times. It’s always the same. He lays it all out there, and then he appeals to your sincerity as proof that you are really a Christian.
Well, I don’t know anyone who is consistantly sincere about following Christ.
But I do know quite a few people who kid themselves because they do not want to appear to others to be outside the normal Evangelical perception of what a good Christian is.
So, Mr. Washer leaves the hearer with the law, and what they should, ought, or must be doing, or feeling.
That’s not the gospel. That’s the law.
“While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” Not when we clean up our act. We don’t even know how to clean up our act. The appeal to get your life in order so that you’ll know that you are His, is nothing more than ‘ladder theology’ and it has more in common with Roman Catholicism than with historic, orthydox Christianity.
I do believe hat Mr. Washer is very sincere. But I do believe that his “free will” decision theology leads him to lead many astray and onto the religious merry go-round of one’s obedience.
Thanks, Jim J.
Well, there is so much wrong with this that it’s hard to know where to start.
1. Free-will theology which serves to keep the old, autonomous self intact, taking unto itself the prerogatives that belong to God.
2. Emotional blackmail….however sincerely the emotions may be felt.
3. Prescriptions galore. There is no need for Christ or His cross in any of this. Moses will do just fine.
4. Textbook example of how to confuse law and gospel.
What’s really depressing about this performance is that millions today would recognize this as orthodox preaching.
Thank God the Word makes it’s own way.
Pastor Mark,
Just a couple of quick observations in response to your comments.
Perhaps you could explain to me more about the concept that I read about here from time to time of those who “reject their baptism” which sounds a lot more like “free will” theology to me than anything I heard this guy say.
You say this as if the two are diametrically opposed. I seem to remember Christ saying something different in the same teachings that this message was taken from.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-Matthew 5:17-19
But that’s just it; the law can’t earn you salvation, because you can’t keep the law. If you break the law in one area you are guilty of all and the wages of sin is death. Jesus isn’t saying here that the law saves you. The law can only condemn you. Only Jesus who perfectly kept the law, saves you by grace alone through faith (that is, trust in Him) alone. Works of the law are great and needful for the benefit of our neighbors. But works of the law earn us nothing as far as our justification or sanctification are concerned. The one who will be called great in the kingdom of heaven then is Jesus–who alone perfectly kept the law. And we will be called great also for his sake.
Jonathan,
I have said this a couple of times before. This message isn’t saying that salvation can be earned by works, so believe it or not the speaker would agree with your comment. I am convinced that some of the folks here are listening to this through a preconceived paradigm and failing to hear what he is saying. This message is directed at those who claim to have had an encounter with the living God and yet have been completely unchanged.
I should have added this to the other post as well, but Jesus seemed to think Moses and the prophets were sufficient to understand God’s grace:
But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'” Luke 16:29-31
Jesus says here that if someone won’t listen to Moses and the Prophets then they won’t hear what He has to say either; even when He comes back from the dead.
jeofury,
Beleiveing that a person has the ability to reject their baptism is not a rejection of the Lutheran doctrine of election, which is perhaps a bit different from the calvinist notions most in america are familiar with.
We do not believe that we have free will, not in spiritual things, but a will that is bound to sin. it is the work of the Holy Spirit that restores us to faith in Jesus Christ, that causes us to be born again as it says in 1 Peter. However we still have the problem of sin in this world. Just as Adam chose to sin, so the Christian can walk away from their baptism. In fact the choice to sin is really the only choice we have to make. In other words it is not symmetrical, If we are saved it is by the grace of God, if we are damned, well it is our own damn fault.
As for Jesus and Moses, Jesus did fulfill the law, because we could not and cannot. He did it for us. So our salvation is not dependant on the Law, Moses, but on the gospel, Jesus Christ. Fulfilling isn’t the same as abolishing, but neither is it the same as leaving things the way they were.
Good morning Bror –
I did not listen to the video as I cannot here at work. But I do want to ask you some questions based on what you just said……
“However we still have the problem of sin in this world. Just as Adam chose to sin, so the Christian can walk away from their baptism.
What does it mean to walk away from a baptism?
Is this the same as a professing Christian one day saying, “that’s it. I’m done with this nonsense called Christianity and I’m going back to my way of life.”
If so, I call that a false conversion. Never born-again to begin with. Jesus said that whoever the Father gives to Him, He will by no means lose them.
A true born-again believer cannot walk away from the faith because Jesus is not letting go of His own.
And saying that we can ‘walk’ away from our baptism implies that the baptism is a work that we did and are holding onto for our salvation.
Faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.
Or, maybe I’m just reading that the wrong way. Not trying to argue here, but trying to understand the way you are explaining this.
I meant to ask you about your reference to 1 Peter. Are you referring perhaps to 1 Peter 2:4:12:
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.” 7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone,” 8and,
“A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. 12Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (emphasis mine)
I am asking because, here Peter is telling those who are redeemed that the must live good lives and abstain from sinful desires. Kind of like the guy in this message suggested as well.
Bror,
A choice that only allows one option is not a choice at all, so this statement is contradictory. Adam had a choice of obedience or disobedience. You have compared apples to oranges. You are referring to a man with a fallen nature and no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear that once God has redeemed us (through no effort of our own); He then asks us to obey Him; which I will touch on in a moment.
This is also essentially self-contradictory. Jesus’ work cannot be understood apart from understanding Moses and the Law so it is very much dependent on the Law. Indeed, without the Law, salvation itself means nothing.
And Jesus is the one who tells us to do the things of the Law.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” – Matthew 7:21
Put that statement together on the heels of the verses I quoted earlier from Matthew 7. Is Jesus putting us on by asking us to do the will of God and keep the commandments?
No. He has given us His Spirit and written His Law in our hearts so that we may know and obey (Jeremiah 31:31-34).
He didn’t give the Law and then decide that it was a mistake that needed to be corrected by sending Jesus. Jesus was already slain before the Law was ever given (Revelation 13:8).
The Law is not intended for an unredeemed people but for a redeemed people. It wasn’t given to Israel before they were taken out of Egypt if you will remember. The mistake here is imagining that the man in the video is telling people how to be saved by works. He is doing nothing of the sort. He is warning those who think themselves saved already to examine their lives as Paul told us to do (2 Corinthians 13:5).
If those who are not God’s children do not obey Him; it is not a surprising thing. But if those who claim to be God’s children disobey Him with no compunction or remorse or discipline coming from our Father; there would be cause for alarm. For God promises discipline to those He loves (Hebrews 12:6).
I have an interesting question to ask about this. What does Hebrews 8:13 mean? Or to be more specific, what is the author suggesting is passing away?
Did Jesus change something with His death and resurrection? If so, then why can Paul say that we are justified before God in the same way that Abraham was; as he does in Romans 4:3?
Those passages are taliking about what God is after from us, now…and that is faith. Faith in God isn’t tied to what WE DO. But it seems to be so for Mr. Washer.
There is nothing wrong with speaking about our obligations under the law, but to tie them to the gospel is flat out wrong.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. That kind of preaching will create little modern day Pharisees (hey look at me, I’m doing alright), or complete phonies (playing the part of what is expected in a ‘good Christian’, lest I be found out), or people who just give up on the whole thing, (realizing that it is impossible to do…at least for them) and often times never darken the door of a church again.
Mr. Washer really ought revisit the parable of the Pharisee and the publican and take a look at which one Jesus said was justified.
I said what I said. That’s it. I don’t try to make sense of what the Bible says I just believe it. We were dead. He causes us to be alive, gives us faith. It isn’t our doing. If we reject it, and we can the Bible says so. it is our fault. If we live it is to the glory of God. I didn’t choose to be born, my parents made that decision if there was a decision being made. I just live. I can though choose to shoot myself.
When Jesus says no one will take us. He won’t let the devil take us, or the world but if we want to reject him, he aint keeping us against our will.
Bror,
Interesting choice of analogy. If we are standing over a body that is lifeless; should we try and perform resuscitation or just let it go?
If we encounter someone with no spiritual “life signs”; should we administer first aid or ignore them?
In both situations, it is God who gives life or death. Should we just stay out of the way or did He ask us to do something?
jeofurry,
i don’t want to be swimming at the beach your a life guard at if your idea of cpr is to ask the victim to come to life.
Bror,
I am the one calling for action rather than words so I don’t get your statement here.
The question is who are you calling for action from, the dead unbeliever, or the Holy Spirit?
Apparently when I said that God is the one who gives life it isn’t obvious who I believe has to act here. The Holy Spirit is the one who gives a heart of flesh to someone who has a heart of stone.
Don’t forget however that the Bible says in Romans 10:14, “How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?”
Or perhaps you would prefer how Paul says it in Ephesians 4:17-25:
17So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more.
20You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
25Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
These words are spoken to believers. Can we afford to ignore them because someone might not understand? Or should we rather do what this says and expect God to work through His Word as He has promised (Isaiah 55:10-11).
The unbeliever won’t act and can’t act because he doesn’t know anything at all until he hears God’s Word and the Holy Spirit acts upon him.
According to God’s Word it very much is. Read Hebrews 11 for instance, or Luther’s favorite, the book of James, that proclaims that faith without action is dead.
I will take Bror’s defense and say that I don’t try to make sense of this; I just believe it. Faith that doesn’t DO is dead.
“He won’t let the devil take us, or the world but if we want to reject him, he aint keeping us against our will.”
I don’t believe for one second that a truly born-again person will reject Christ once God saves that person.
No way; can’t.
The only rejection is coming from one who is not part of the fold.
God saves all that are His. He looks for that one lost sheep that is of His fold.
The goats will always reject Christ because they are not sheep in His fold.
i don’t know but I seem to recall a parable somewhere about seed, some of it sprouting to life, and dying off in the hot sun.
But then I’m not into second guessing confessions of faith. someone tells me they believe and I believe them. If later that person has fallen away, well then I believe them there.
The idea of one falling way also seems to occupy Paul’s mind quite a bit.
“Galatians 5:4 (ESV)
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. ”
call me stupid, but if he thought it was a possibility, then i will too.
These Galatian’s were trying to keep the law and be justified by it (v4). They, as John says in 1 john 2:19, went out from us because they were not of us. They were never saved by faith to begin with.
Paul also tells us in 2 Cor 13:5 to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith; make sure were not a false convert.
Let me throw out another issue to ponder regarding the Law, while I wait for a response to the question about Hebrews 8:13.
Take a look at what the first “commandment” that God gave in Exodus 20 is; this is where the Law, as we are speaking of it here, begins.
The Jews have long understood the first commandment to be “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.” Ironically, it is the church that has managed to confuse the matter on this one.
The first commandment is God’s declaration that He has redeemed His people. The Law is not simply a list of dos and don’ts throw out for people to follow if they can. It is a definition of God’s character and an invitation to those who love Him to draw near to Him and know Him. The writer of Hebrews tries to explain all of this more fully for our sakes. Note how many times he talks about “drawing near” to God.
“The Law is not simply a list of dos and dont’s thrown out for people to follow if they can. It is a definition of God’s character and an invitation to those who love Him to draw near to Him and know Him”.
OK, so if the law invites us to draw near, where’s the problem – where’s the need for something more? Is the Law in itself a redemptive means – if we could keep it, perhaps we could draw near, but isn’t the argument of Christ and Paul that we cannot?
Hebrews argues that we are brought near by faith (trusting the promises of God) and the perfect work of Christ – that is what makes the difference.
Howard,
That is precisely correct. God didn’t change His plan in midstream. The people of Israel were to draw near by trusting the promises of God, like Abraham did (Romans 4:3), as revealed in His Word. This is why John went out of his way to identify Jesus as the Living Word of God.
The writer of Hebrews says in chapter 10:8-14:
The sacrifices that the Jews offered were never intended or able to take away sins. They were offered to draw near to God. Jesus sacrifice also brings us near to God (1 Peter 3:18.
As the writer of Hebrews says later in chapter 10:19-24:
There is another one of those passages about doing things after we have been brought to God again. And the admonition continues a verse later:
If Jesus is the Word of God, as John has said and Jesus Himself claimed to be; then He is resident in all of the Word of God and that includes the Law. The writer of Hebrews says here that if merely rejecting the written word of the Law brought death; then how much more serious is it to reject that same Word written on our hearts by the Spirit of the Living God when we are redeemed?
[…] Posted on February 23, 2010 by jeofurry Update: My friend Steve from theoldadam blog decided to post this video on his blog and I have also been engaged in the conversation over there as well as the conversation I am having with Steve here. I love Steve as my brother in Christ […]
Steve,
I hope you don’t mind me cross-linking the post to your comments. Feel free to remove it if you do. I thought it might be good for people who wonder by my blog to be able to see the post and discussion over here as well.
Not at all, Jeff.
The more the merrier.
Haven’t had much time to jump back in.In fact, I have got to go back out now. I try and answer your comments as soon as possible.
I’ve always counted you as a friend and brother in Christ, as well. Thanks, Jeff.
“The writer of Hebrews says here that if merely rejecting the written word of the Law brought death; then how much more serious is it to reject that same Word written on our hearts by the Spirit of the Living God when we are redeemed?”
Much, I think, depends on how we understand the word ‘reject’.
Are we saying rejection amounts to a Christian committing sin?
That, I believe argues with John – ‘if we say we have no sin, then we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness’.
Are we saying that rejection amounts to doing things we know to be wrong? That, I believe argues with Paul’s argument in Romans 7:14-25.
The key, I think, in the Hebrews passage is that God’s children (those redeemed by the work of Christ) ‘hold fast to a hope’, which facilitates love, good works, fellowship and reasonable service. The ‘holding fast’, in effect, is not actually ours – underneath are the everlasting arms which grants us the ability to look to Christ, and to be fed and nurtured by His care and God’s salvic mercy.
Therein, I think, I hope, is the Gospel, which grants hope for the smoldering flax’s. If this remedy is not so granted, then which of us stands, for in truth, as Paul notes in Romans, are we not all, every child of Adam, concluded in unbelief?
I have not intended to suggest that in any way shape or for. In my discussion on this topic with Steve at my own blog, my last comment quoted those same verses from 1 John.
In the passage in Romans 7, Paul actually calls for us to be a slave to God’s Law in our minds as opposed to sin. So I think Paul answers your second question. We all stumble. Proverbs 24:16 says, “for the righteous falls seven times and rises again, but the wicked stumble in times of calamity.” This verse tells us the righteous keeps getting up when he falls. It is God who picks us up when we falls, just as any good Father would. But if someone is content to dwell in sin without remorse or conviction from our heavenly Father, there must be a problem according to Scripture itself (Hebrews 12:6).
Washer basically preached Matthew chapter 7.
Of all the people who emphatically call Me Lord, (Lord,Lord)…….of these people…..only a few are genuine.
Washer see’s how the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been reduced down to a few spiritual laws you must know and a superstitious prayer that many evangelical churches in America teach. How many people believe themselves to be saved because they repeated a prayer asking Jesus to come into their heart and the preacher tells them they are saved?
Washer just rehashed the good ol’ M’erican Southern Baptist theology.
It’s akin to Charles Finney and his ‘anxious bench’… no thanks, I’m not buying.
It’s a distortion of the Gospel of grace which is no gospel..It’s a shell game and at the end, Jesus disappears and Moses is left on the table.
Despair, indifference or self righteousness are the results of this theology.
It’s astounding how far from the reformation modern american revivalist christianism has moved. I charge that they have in fact gone full circle and have returned to Rome.
“if someone is content to dwell in sin without remorse or conviction from our heavenly Father, there must be a problem according to Scripture itself (Hebrews 12:6)”.
Jeo, Many thanks for the clarification. Remorse and conviction truly show a work of grace – these things certainly do not come naturally, but are indeed the work of the Holy Spirit (the story of David immediately springs to mind).
I would love to participate in this one more, but I’m now away for a few days without internet, so I’ll be very interested to catch up when I return.
Brent – I know exactly what you mean, having lived under that yoke for many, many years. So many distortions – antinomian, legalist or gnostic in nature – but He carries us through, for His grace is most certainly sufficient. I hope everyone has a good weekend.
1 Timothy 6:11-14 (New Century Version)
Some Things to Remember
11 But you, man of God, run away from all those things. Instead, live in the right way, serve God, have faith, love, patience, and gentleness.12 Fight the good fight of faith, grabbing hold of the life that continues forever. You were called to have that life when you confessed the good confession before many witnesses.13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, I give you a command. Christ Jesus made the good confession when he stood before Pontius Pilate.14 Do what you were commanded to do without wrong or blame until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again.
And…this is NOT about winning, losing, or keeping salvation. It IS about loving one another and living a joyful life in the power of the Holy Spirit!
Ike wrote – Washer see’s how the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been reduced down to a few spiritual laws you must know and a superstitious prayer that many evangelical churches in America teach. How many people believe themselves to be saved because they repeated a prayer asking Jesus to come into their heart and the preacher tells them they are saved?
That’s exactly the context of the sermon. Washer isn’t talking about true salvation but fake salvation. By saying what salvation is NOT, he is not saying what it IS. It isn’t fair at all to say he’s preaching the gospel as salvation by works. He is not. Thanks again, Ike.
The largest issue is can a fake Christian turn into a true believer by trying to keep the law harder? Preaching the simple message of repentance and forgiveness of sins as instituted by Jesus is how sin is over come. Muscle up against sin all you want with the law as motivation is a losing battle no matter the strength of commitment to change.
Good point. Although it is a rhetorical question I will agree with you that the answer is no so that people can really be confused who think they know all that I am thinking. Doing the works of the law through a sense of obligation won nothing but condemnation from the prophets of God and from Christ during His time on earth.
Indeed Jeofurry that works held up to God do not avail but rather condemn. Unfortunately the majority of speaches rendered by Mr Washer all point to works are necessary to become a genuine Christian. Much rather he would lay the law down severely, as he does, then point to dead and risen Jesus for repentance and forgiveness of sin.
Jesus has overcome the world. As the object of our faith is how we overcome the world. We receive that victory and the good deeds follow like exhaling follows inhaling. Breath in the word of God and out comes the works in which Our Father is well pleased.
Thanks be to God!
Unfortunately the majority of speaches rendered by Mr Washer all point to works are necessary to become a genuine Christian.
As numerous folks have pointed out; this sermon isn’t suggesting that works are necessary to become a genuine Christian. Rather it is a statement of fact that these things will happen in a Christian’s life as you mentioned also. I don’t see the problem with warning someone of this fact; particularly when you are doing so by quoting the words of Jesus Christ from Scripture.
I absolutely agree. Which is why God told us to check the “spiritual respiration” when nothing is happening in a person’s life.
What of the thief on the cross? He had no time or call for good works. His assurance was based totally on his repentence and the gospel message of grace from Jesus’ words.
I wonder where Rev Washer comes down on “Simul Iustice et Peccator.”
Raising the next generation of fundamentalists…